An Honest Discussion about the Drama Surrounding MNFURS

[Cybergarou]

Kehmet wrote:

Cybergarou wrote:

If you haven’t figured out my theory by now, I suspect that Furry Migration has soaked up the community’s time and talent like a big sponge

FM is getting harder to find volunteers/staff for as well. My own department, which consisted of five staff since I joined, up through 2018, three for 2019, and currently only two for 2020. And I know a lot of other departments are experiencing the same thing

You can’t look at individual departments and extrapolate that to the whole. There are many reasons why staffing levels could decline in some areas while overall they don’t change or increase. That’s why we need someone to take a look at the actual numbers for everything. Until then we can really only speculate about what’s happening so I prefer to wait for information before going into what the trends could mean.

To be clear, nobody has said to stop looking for volunteers. We have simply shown that there is more to the issue and simply telling people to volunteer isn’t addressing it. And we’re waiting to hear what will come of any efforts to look into it. (The number of times in this thread volunteers have been told they need to volunteer more is a bit ridiculous though.)

[Aerak]

Jac illustrated one point really well: MNFurs and Furry Migration are always changing. The change is in the people involved, their ideas, hopes, aspiration, and time. Plus, no one is getting paid for this. Almost all of us work 40+ hour/week jobs. Many of us have social lives and relationships. It’s amazing that some folks step forward at all.

Certainly a lot of time and talent are needed to run a convention, however, it’s not good to assume that this is somehow being taken out of the pool for mnfurs and it’s year round events. One of our main stage guys, Hikyuuri, pretty much stayed at the MNFurs booth the entire time at the holiday party helping with the raffle. Zest, who helps with social media for FM stepped in to sell MNFurs t-shirts and Merch. Neither had to do those things. But they did. And then you have some people who aren’t interested in the convention but do love helping the year round community. And you have people that just want to help the convention. So people will go where they go and most of it is an individual’s personal interests and motivations.

[Cybergarou]

Aerak, it is equally not good to assume that the convention isn’t taking resources from other events. But you missed the entire point of my post. There has been some useful information and suggestions coming out of this discussion. But there has been a lot of people leaving opinions that have often been unhelpful because they were created out of a need to defend the organization by invalidating the issues that people have been bringing up. The problem is that mere opinions cannot do that, only facts, information, or actions can. So when the majority of the responses are defense opinions, that is what frustrates people.

So let’s take a look at your last post. You chastised me for assuming that the convention is somehow taking time and talent away from other events. The problem is that I know it does because I’ve seen it first hand and I’ve had to deal with the consequences. I had one person who had committed to promoting Werecamp at the convention, and then they couldn’t because they had to help the convention instead. The convention staff was supposed to put something together for Werecamp, because we don’t have any staff with the required skills, and at the last minute it was thrown back at me because they decided they couldn’t be bothered. You can’t make volunteers do anything so I just did the best I could with what I had.

I just don’t know the extent to which this may be happening and some of what has been stated in this thread made me consider that it might be worth looking into it. That is why I gave a suggestion that somebody should do so. Of course, at this moment I don’t know if anybody intends on doing so. I only know that one person has dismissed it as nonsense, so I gave proof that it’s not nonsense. For that matter, nobody ever responded to my suggestions for the website which would be able to prevent the issues that resulted from Jac’s illness regarding the dates not making it into the calendar. It might be in Twisted’s list, but I don’t know right now. We’ll keep waiting.

[Mouring]

Let me start by stating that I have no pony in this race anymore. I’ve been quietly following through this thread since the start, and it tends to get down too much into the weeds.  And not looking at things at a 10,000 foot view.  As all organizations will fail from time to time.  As such, I have a few comments; then I have a major question at the end for everyone.

I think the first and foremost I need to point out that a version of this discussion has been going on since before 2011 (the year that kicked off Snowpocalypse restarting the MNFurs Steering Committee which resulted in MNFurs non-profit). In fact, this is (from my understand from Charles) the third attempt to start a true community organization. Lets say the other two attempts imploded (rather awe inspiring bad if the tales are to be believed).

I see this version of MNFurs like the final swamp castle in Monty Python’s Holy Grail. The others may have sank, burnt down, or fell over, but this one is still standing. Which is good. It means that progress is being made forward despite the issues that are being grappled with.

But it still drags along that pre-2011 history as well as it created new drama along the way (e.g. election process of the first board of directors). This legacy encouraged the “Good Ol’ Boys Club” view to some. And honestly that view will always exist until the heat death of the universe or the dissolution of MNFurs (which ever comes first).

Mind you, it’s the same issues that Convergence, Anime Detour, Minicon, Anthrocon, Midwest Furfest, etc all fight against. Whomever ends up in the top-end of a convention or non-profit unpaid organization tends to be those that are willing to hold their nose and drive in knowing they will not get everything they want, but being happy if they can help make a minor course correction to improve the organization. And at some point those folks get labeled as part of that boys club.

However, as Kellic is so fond of repeating “Volunteers are the life blood of the organization.”  Be them there to run small events, being staff on larger events, or being elected to a director position. And volunteers are the ones that shape it in the end.

I know some of the rub comes from the “20 hours to vote” aspect that was decided on. The concept of a “paid membership” was floated by someone in our community in 2011, and the steering group heard strongly from the community that it was an unacceptable path.

There is technically a third way which is free-for-all. If you volunteer or not you can vote or be elected on the board. But I’m not sure if IRS/MN allows that in a 501(c)3. There was also fears of “popufur” always winning or people winning without actually doing anything for the community.  Or someone being elected and ignoring their responsibilities making things harder for the non-profit.  As the higher levels do require a lot of dedication of time (some of which at the Board level is *NOT* counted for voting hours requiring the board members to be involved in community events volunteer work to keep them from being isolated).

And with the discussion of volunteers now up, I need to split Aerak’s and Cyber’s view. Yes the convention has/needs a lot of volunteers. A convention will grow to consume all space and people that it can get (basic convention law see ComicCon, GenCon, Anthrocon, Midwest Furfest, etc). And this will cause issues with other events if their critical work period are too close to it (reason why Furry Migration is in September and they can’t move to August or October without losing staff to other nearby fandom cons).

However, Outside a few key people and departments the convention goes dormant for almost nine months of the year, and only fully reawakens around late June to early November when most volunteers start actively thinking about it. Plus if you look at it from a “Twin Cities” view there are more furries in the Twin Cities area than they have on staff. If you expand it to Minnesota and Western Wisconsin (I’ll leave Eastern Dakotas and Northern Iowa out as they have their own furry community groups even if they do join us for our fun and games) there are a lot of people within the community that could help (note “could” this doesn’t imply they want to, have the time to, or know how to).

The primarily issue is more of the inability to communicate the needs clearly to those that have time and wish to help. The website is great, the mailing-lists are great, but they are a fraction of the Twin Cities community and a fraction of a fraction of the wider area community. And as an event person (either convention, werecamp, or local smaller events) you have to understand there is personal leg work of your own to reach those people either for volunteering or for social get together reasons. And I think that is what is missing from this conversation. There is a lot of “MNFurs isn’t posting X!” discussion (in general over the years not just in this thread), but even with “X” being posted to all our social media outlets it still is a drop in the bucket. MNFurs’ largest media outlet, I suspect, is twitter at ~1,700 followers and Furry Migration’s twitter at ~5,500. And I know both groups cross-tweet each other. And I suspect majority of those posts are ignored unless they are cute fuzzy fursuiter photos (My perspective; I have no data to proof it). I also know from experience a large chunk of our community doesn’t following any of the MNFurs’ social media, and barely cares about the website unless there is a picnic or major event happening.

Let me take a 100,000 ft view step back as well. This isn’t a MNFurs or Furry Migration issue. This isn’t a “Furry” issue. This seems to be a general fandom issue. As other local conventions (Anime Detour and Fusion) without checkered past are having a volunteer problem as well. I suspect if you reached out to volunteer/HR departments to community and conventions in general around the US you’d see the same problem to some degree (I loath to include outside of US due to serious cultural differences). I have a theory as to why (Con/MNFurs staff have heard it), but I have nothing but correlation conversations, and we know that doesn’t equal causation due to statistics.

Now, this brings up the big question: What as a community (not MNFurs, not Furry Migration) can we do about it?

From what I’ve seen of the Board of Directors and the Convention have both tried hard to reach out and be as open and communicative as they can within their time constraints. But I still hear people say, “But I didn’t know Y was going on!” Even after it has gone out on twitter, facebook, the website, the mailing lists, via unofficial telegram channel, etc.

That I think is the question that needs the community needs to be discussion. How do we as a community make our events know to each other? How do we as a community make our volunteering needs known to each other?  And how do we do this without spamming and killing the communications channel.

Be these technical solutions (e.g. “The event form will be posted on the calendar in 10 days if there is no admin/staff rejection.”), be them social solutions, or whatever..

Because MNFurs is absolutely nothing without the community. It’s a dead non-profit that has failed its charter (And for those that like light reading the legal reading they are here: https://www.mnfurs.org/about/mnfurs-operational-documents/ ).

Because at the end of the day, MNFurs surviving or failing doesn’t change the true underlying issue.  Which is how do we as community connect and stay connected.

[JB Raccoon]

Cybergarou wrote:

There isn’t anybody in the world with more opinions about MNFurs than me. I’ve just learned not to share most of them because, well, nobody ever cared to discuss them. The only time people talked to me was to tell me the way things were. Nobody even bothered to find out why I was angry after MNFurs incorporated, because they assumed that they knew or simply didn’t care. (This was the time when I was more like Richard. I think you’re still reading, I’m honestly trying to save you some pain there.) The fact is, you can’t change opinions with opinions. And the fact that we have two sides repeatedly telling each other the same thing over and over again underscores this. So let’s see if we can come up with some actual hard data here instead.

This here, has me concerned as it is someone pointing out that they wished initially to remain silent. Quite to contrary belief, remaining silent isn’t always best. From my perspective, it seems like not only do we as a community [I live outside MN] have to try to find ways to spread the word a little more, but internal agencies need to look at themselves and ensure that impressions such as the quote above, doesn’t get displayed. This, could possibly be part of the cause of lack of participation [volunteers] but no way to say definitively. Once the data gets released, and things become a bit more clear, then hopefully finding a suitable resolution may be near.

[Cybergarou]

JB Raccoon wrote:

This here, has me concerned as it is someone pointing out that they wished initially to remain silent. Quite to contrary belief, remaining silent isn’t always best. From my perspective, it seems like not only do we as a community [I live outside MN] have to try to find ways to spread the word a little more, but internal agencies need to look at themselves and ensure that impressions such as the quote above, doesn’t get displayed. This, could possibly be part of the cause of lack of participation [volunteers] but no way to say definitively. Once the data gets released, and things become a bit more clear, then hopefully finding a suitable resolution may be near.

It’s more of a reflection of the history between me and MNFurs and not really a result of something currently ongoing. I was once much more active in MNFurs and part of the steering group that Mouring mentioned. The election drama is the reason I walked away. My trust in the group was destroyed, and you better believe I wasn’t silent, and thus the groups trust in me was destroyed as well. After years of being angry at the group and wanting them to fix their issues, because there’s no alternatives in the area that I could go to, I learned to just suppress my opinions for the sake of getting along with people enough to do my own thing.

This thread is just the first time somebody else has brought up some of the issues I had brought up, making this the first time that I couldn’t simply be brushed off as trying to stir up trouble. Still, I’m trying to stick to basic things. I have strong feelings regarding the elections and what volunteer based elections do to the community, but in the end it no longer has an impact on me so I’m going to let them do what they want without me bothering them. It’s a battle I don’t want anymore.

[Cybergarou]

Also, there’s a lot of text in his post, but what Mouring wrote is well worth reading so if anyone just skimmed it I encourage you to go back and fully read it. Thanks for writing that Mouring.

[Richard Head]

so there HAVE been others that feel like their voice goes unheard? That tells me at least it’s not just me being overacting on some things then. I know I did get very upset, but after talking to JB about it and him getting back in contact with me, I could tell him what I wanted to from the time of my last post.  Why do our voices get mirrored back at us? Is it people just getting bored with things and not caring anymore?

[Mouring]

Richard Head wrote:

so there HAVE been others that feel like their voice goes unheard? That tells me at least it’s not just me being overacting on some things then. I know I did get very upset, but after talking to JB about it and him getting back in contact with me, I could tell him what I wanted to from the time of my last post. Why do our voices get mirrored back at us? Is it people just getting bored with things and not caring anymore?

There are technical issues (calendar events not getting updated, board members stretched thin doing 50 things plus their day job, etc), and there are social issues.  The former can be dealt with if there is time by the staff or someone willing in the community to help resolve them.  The latter is so far out of what any community group control I’m at a loss for words as to what would be expected from MNFurs/FM.

I’ve been around conventions for 15 – 20 years (I am a white muzzle, yes) from big ones like GenCon (20,000+ people back in the Milwaukee days) to small anime/furcons. And breaking into a crowd for conversations is seriously hard no matter where you are.  The best the convention can do is offer up events and panels that draw people of like interest together in hopes they will talk and bond.

Heck, at FM I’m *STILL* an outsider at the convention after six years!  Yes, I know the staff well, yes I have a few non-staff friends from the community that go, but on an average it’s just me.  It was worse in my earlier years, but it because easier when I started volunteering for Convergence on 22nd Floor Gaming.  It became even easier when I picked up photography again, and I volunteered to do studio at different conventions.  Both gave me the ability to talk with people and make them laugh or smile (I try to forget the growling I had to do, but sometimes one needs to be the adult in the room).  Doing the public room party at Furry Migration called “Furmented” (homebrew) years one to five were one of the best thing in my life (yes, I seriously regret giving it up last year).  I suspect I met at least 30% of the convention population.  I was recognized and stopped for side conversations when I wasn’t dashing from one convention job to another. It was truly a wonderful ice breaker as I talked with folks I wouldn’t have ever crossed paths with normally.  Which is all that FM can do, provide events to help break the ice.

I will only touch on fursuiters, but honest they are attention whores (I say this in a loving way).  Like artists, they are one of the pillars of the community. And the Fursuiter discussion has been around for decades in the global community. Furry is one of the *FEW* general purpose cosplay communities that have character interactions. Anime, Comics, etc they don’t have this level of interaction of silliness and entertainment value.  They are there to show off their skills in cosplaying, and not acting. And a good fursuiter can make one laugh and forget about ones shitty life (hell the photo shoot with Sunny is still the best experiences in my life and brighten my convention weekend).

As for the prop, @Aerak has already addressed it, but I’m sure as a Co-ConChair for 2020 he has it as a note to speak with Operations and help roll out a better refresher course to all the staff in regards to their props policy for 2020.  Because I know I would if I was still part of the convention.

For everyone:

I’m sorry if I sound like a MNFurs/FM fanboy.  I’ve seen it grow and evolve.  I’ll point out Cyber’s past pushing has generated one long lasting positive effect, and I hope a second.  The first is MNFurs picnics rotating around the whole of the 494/694 loop instead of stuck in St Paul (like we did for years).  The second is he started the camping con he wanted in WereCamp that people enjoy in the winter.  Yes, I know he may have wanted FM to be a camping con, but the majority of the con staff didn’t (and like with life majority normally wins).

So things do change, things do advance, and sadly most of this thread has devolved into individual issues, but loses track of the progress and advancements that have happened over 8 years. And that is such a narrow mindset to have.  Yes, they aren’t perfect.  They are living, breathing humans, and we’re not perfect.  Yes, this conversation (in some case almost the EXACT discussions and in others things close to it) has been happening for over a decade.  Even before MNFurs became an organization, and back then it was ran by different people.  And yes, MNFurs’ dreamed big, and they are having serious growing pains trying to fill the shoes it promised.  Hell, the original talk back in 2012 was of 2 – 3 hour classes (at least monthly) on subjects ranging from art to sewing to general making, and most of that has been put on the back burner because the Board of Directors [and MNFurs Staff] *ARE* the same people that run the picnics, holiday party, and the convention.  So if you keep hearing them/me talking about volunteering and being involved.  This is why.  Because they can’t grow into those shoes by themselves.

I would be greatly sadden if conversations like this resulted in MNFurs giving up and retooling to be just a “convention non-profit.”  I think it would be a massive blow to the local community and to the wider furry community. As what Minnesota has is special.  There are others talking about doing a community non-profit around the US, but not many have started down that road.

Lastly, consider this:  If MNFurs/FM was such a shit show, as some are trying to make it out to be, then why is FM still growing at a healthy rate?  Why are the holiday party and picnics growing pushing their ability to host them?  Why hasn’t the community split like back in the SNCFurs/Frozen Fury days.

[Note unless personally address for feedback, this will be my last post to this thread.]

[3pm Minor clarity noted via [] above]

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Mouring.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Mouring.

[Richard Head]

Let me ask you this, why do people still try and help MN furs and furry Migration? Maybe its because they were falsely trusting them and hoping events/meet ups will someday not be in the twin cities solely, maybe Furry Migration will improve on things. I’m sure after people see this thread they are going to question there loyalty to the group and con. and let me say this, yes some cosplayers can be seen as attention whores through and through, but for most (I can’t speak for all) seem to do it for the love of whatever anime, TV show, comic, etc they enjoy. Unlike fursuiters who seem to rub it in peoples faces that they own one and will only be whit other suiters. I could go on and on but I’ll hold back, I’ve only cosplayed for the enjoyment of peoples reaction to my plague doctor. Not like fursuiters who huddle up with refuse to speak to none suiters.

[Aerak]

Richard Head wrote:

Let me ask you this, why do people still try and help MN furs and furry Migration? Maybe its because they were falsely trusting them and hoping events/meet ups will someday not be in the twin cities solely, maybe Furry Migration will improve on things. I’m sure after people see this thread they are going to question there loyalty to the group and con. and let me say this, yes some cosplayers can be seen as attention whores through and through, but for most (I can’t speak for all) seem to do it for the love of whatever anime, TV show, comic, etc they enjoy. Unlike fursuiters who seem to rub it in peoples faces that they own one and will only be whit other suiters. I could go on and on but I’ll hold back, I’ve only cosplayed for the enjoyment of peoples reaction to my plague doctor. Not like fursuiters who huddle up with refuse to speak to none suiters.

Okay. Let me ask you this. The majority of furries live in the cities. The vast majority. If an event is held hours away, what is the expected turn out? What is a realistic number?

Anyone can decide to host an event. Jac admitted that a couple community member events slid past while he was dealing with life events. Aside from that though, most have been posted about in a timely manner with our events form. Most are in the cities because again, that’s where a majority of people are located.

So that just leaves official mnfurs events run by staff. So I ask you, is it realistic or I’d even argue fair, to create events far away from the majority of the membership?

I should mention, we have Werecamp right around the corner, and it’s not in the twin cities.

—

For anyone who’s looking at this thread, look two posts above this at what Mouring wrote because it’s far more eloquent than anything I can write.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Aerak.

[JB Raccoon]

Alright, you two knock that off, no reason to get angry and post something that’s way off kilter. And to answer a question, I think all of the state should be entitled yes, not with physical appearances by ones that live a distance away, but certainly some advice and/or support which seems to be a heavy issue. I don’t know about anyone else, but I would suggest those of you that want to host events, and maybe have it listed, don’t be afraid to ask. Speak up, and see how it goes, whether or not ones from the cities show, is irrelevant, what SHOULD count more is to see some assistance with ideas, opinions, things like that. I see no harm in it and it’s far more effective than acting like a couple of children wanting to meet in the school yard after class……….Goodness, we are all adults [at least I think so] we can keep this discussion going without one on one conflicts. As I said, those that are a distance from the cities, and want to do some events for other furs nearby, I say why not. Ask the MN staff to post it, and go from there. Gotta start at the basics, which is communication in that aspect. There’s enough drama, which this thread was initially about, already.

 

 

Even those that are wisest, often become students once more

[Aerak]

Im not mad at anyone. I’m just responding is all.

The Drama in MNFurs as the thread is named is this thread itself. Everyone in it comes across as angry and it dehumanizes everyone. There is no winning here. This is a toxic blame game thread. It has generated a lot of discussion, especially at the last board meeting, so I’m at least grateful of that.

Can we just plan an in person meeting, please? I know that might be hard for some people, but with enough notice and creative options, I think it would be more productive. I mean, I don’t know what else to do. Get a room at (insert good restaurant here) and talk it all out because otherwise this is the internet and everyone comes off as an angry rage monster.

[Richard Head]

If the location should be in the twin cities, not everyone may feel comfortable driving down there with it being winter and also if your not familiar with the lay out you can get lost pretty quickly. So a meet up to discuss this topic face to face is not viable, granted yes the internet is full of “Trolls and monsters” but this is as a best of place for people to talk who cannot make it to meets. down there.

[JB Raccoon]

despite my not being remotely close [I live in WV] I’m not keen on social meets where I have to show my muzzle. I got into Internet radio so I could share my talent and no one would have to see me. I won’t even go to a con at all and acknowledge I am who I am, because I can’t get a partial yet. Besides, I don’t tell folks, “I have the most beautiful face………for radio!” for nothing hehe but if there’s something I might be able to assist in otherwise, I would do what I can.

[Author]

Posts